tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post6646554737271627434..comments2023-09-24T17:23:34.758+01:00Comments on A girl walks into a bar...: Thoughts on a shorter BVCMelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09562627821162756791noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-60228717490208078462008-08-27T16:47:00.000+01:002008-08-27T16:47:00.000+01:00Just deleted the first one, that ok for you, Minx?...Just deleted the first one, that ok for you, Minx? <BR/><BR/>Indeed, as in so many matters Mr Myerson's post is very good and thought-provoking. If anything this was my thinking in response to that post and the comments there.Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562627821162756791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-68045770763686971812008-08-27T14:57:00.001+01:002008-08-27T14:57:00.001+01:00oops! (*blush) I just repeated meself! Wheres the ...oops! (*blush) I just repeated meself! Wheres the scissors??!Minxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374956155964328760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-73610351966337928202008-08-27T14:57:00.000+01:002008-08-27T14:57:00.000+01:00I am of the opinion that the BVC is an unfortunate...I am of the opinion that the BVC is an unfortunate, but necessary Evil, if for no other good reason than it provides a step up to the world of work after the compartive luxury/grind ( depending on your route to this point) of a degree/GDL. I found it a rather odd mix of taught skill in combination with a personal need to re-develop a world of work ethic, which I'd lacked for at least the final year of my law degree. <BR/>I think its a bit like the written part of a driving test - something you must have before you go on to the practical excersise of pupillage.<BR/>There have been many arguments for a shortened BVC - I believe the Bar Council is considering dropping elements such as Negotiation from the course, though whether this happens remains to be seen- as there have been for the worth of the BVC as a qualification in general. In this respect, Simon Myerson's blog has a useful post on the matter which is well worth reading.Minxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374956155964328760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-68353077764674384912008-08-27T14:56:00.000+01:002008-08-27T14:56:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Minxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374956155964328760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-57785949734507262732008-08-26T19:15:00.000+01:002008-08-26T19:15:00.000+01:00No arguments here! :) I'm just considering how the...No arguments here! :) <BR/>I'm just considering how the universities would respond - particularly the more traditional ones. They strike me as always being late to come to the table with practical solutions.Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562627821162756791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-89029799177137250142008-08-26T17:27:00.000+01:002008-08-26T17:27:00.000+01:00I am not looking to argue. It was more really a c...I am not looking to argue. It was more really a case of looking at how the BVC might be shortened. I am not sure there is any need to mix up the academic law and the vocational law. Wouldn't it be possible to treat the latter as electives in the same way as electives are offered in other non foundation subjects ? So, rather than say take an elective on something such as employment law, the student could opt for an elective on research or drafting instead. They could then be exempted from doing the same on the vocational course. I think, here, much of my approach is driven by the way in which the process acts against those of limited financial means. I am not at all unconvinced that the brighter students (being those that stand a realistic chance of progressing to practice) couldn't do the academic & vocational stage in 3 years with a bit of rejigging, and some extra summer school type classes etc.barboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05020518855960999132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-80240524098169933452008-08-26T10:58:00.000+01:002008-08-26T10:58:00.000+01:00The Law Society and Bar Council dictate a minimum ...The Law Society and Bar Council dictate a minimum content for law degrees, which much be completed for the law degree to be qualifying - but this is usually at the discretion of the student. I know many people who had no interest in practising law and so did not take all the core subjects; they walked away with a good law degree. <BR/><BR/>I think Law is probably in the middle ground between Medicine, Nursing and something like History. Yes, it has vocational elements, but it remains an academic discipline. We were never treated as 'future lawyers', we were treated as students, academics. I don't think anything else would have been appropriate. <BR/><BR/>I think writing academically and writing in the BVC are very different, and they couldn't really be mixed up- especially not as early as the first year. It would be like a 3 year long BVC!Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562627821162756791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-67201011926089365632008-08-25T15:11:00.000+01:002008-08-25T15:11:00.000+01:00But does not a "qualifying" UK LLB tend towards be...But does not a "qualifying" UK LLB tend towards being a vocational degree anyway, in the same way as nursing, medical and other degrees, where the professional bodies dictate the syllabus. <BR/><BR/>Having recently re-read my degree notes, I do not think it would be hard to get rid of 6 months worth of the current study (especially at year one level, which I felt was a total waste of effort) and replace it with 6 months worth of content from the BVC/LPC vocational courses.barboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05020518855960999132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-49791334821159448382008-08-25T14:53:00.000+01:002008-08-25T14:53:00.000+01:00That would hardly be fair for those who study Law ...That would hardly be fair for those who study Law as an academic discipline and not as a preparation for a career in Law. <BR/><BR/>A degree in law isn't necessarily vocational, and I don't think it should be taught as such. <BR/><BR/>There are several joint LLB/JD programmes - after 4 years study you get the LLB and JD which suggests they are of a similar level academically. <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure what the 'low grade junk' is that you refer to. I don't recall any on my LLb syllabus, I found the course thought-provoking, informative, and indeed exacting.Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562627821162756791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-85696203871013315592008-08-25T14:15:00.000+01:002008-08-25T14:15:00.000+01:00In comparing the two, which may be fruitless, migh...In comparing the two, which may be fruitless, might it be that the US JD/LLB is, perhaps, more rigorous than the UK equivalent ? And that explains why US lawyers are let loose after only 3 months study for their Bar exam. <BR/><BR/>It is difficult to form an opinion (being of advanced years and remembering when academic study was - cough- a tad more exacting than it is today) but I am not all unconvinced that many of the ills complained of by students could not be solved by excising some of the low grade junk from the LLB and replacing it with elements of the current BVC (or LPC). <BR/><BR/>The LLB would be more difficult, but still at 3 years. A shortened BVC/LPC could then be taken after graduation. This might not only weed out those who are not best suited to working in the law but would also save on a year's worth of living costs etc., for the student, thereby making the process more accessible to those with lesser means.barboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05020518855960999132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-10501985187039433152008-08-25T13:16:00.000+01:002008-08-25T13:16:00.000+01:00In the USA they actually do a 4 year undergrad, fo...In the USA they actually do a 4 year undergrad, followed by a 3 year JD programme - so 7 years in total. The 3 year JD programme is very much like an LLB programme (for various reasons, political and otherwise it is called a JD). I would say it is more like having 2 undergraduate degrees - one of which is in law. The time spent studying doesn't necessarily correlate to increasing difficulty. For example, I don't think undergraduate degrees are as rigourous as undergraduate degrees here- certainly the level of specialisation doesn't match. Just anecdotally, friends who have studied in both countries have found they have learned more in the UK and been tested more rigorously. So when it comes to the point of taking the BVC or the Bar exam I think US and UK students are at the same academic stage. <BR/><BR/>I'm definitely not comparing like for like when it comes to the BVC and the Bar exam however; they both have different aims and practice after that point is very different. UK students need to go on to further training (on the job in a training contract or pupillage) whereas US students are able to start practising on successful completion of the Bar Exam.<BR/><BR/>I think that is what makes it a different proposition to the 'UK version' - not what has come before it as you have suggested, but what comes after it.Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562627821162756791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3973059296342782173.post-44890312725082996972008-08-25T12:39:00.000+01:002008-08-25T12:39:00.000+01:00Are you sure you are comparing like and like when ...Are you sure you are comparing like and like when you say about the USA students doing the NY Bar Exam. In the USA, is it not a case of the typical student doing 4 years undergrad, then two years of law school and then the final 3 months of Bar exams. If this is correct, it makes it a very different proposition to the UK version. <BR/><BR/>In the UK, it would equate, in time terms, to doing an LLB, two masters, and the BVC.barboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05020518855960999132noreply@blogger.com